This is a clip of Stephan’s interview about Is "Discovery" the Future of Search? on SemRush.

DB: Well, hello there, everyone, and welcome to the recording of Search Marketing Scoop Episode Number 18. We are going to be starting the proper podcast fairly soon. Of course, it's a live stream. It's a video. It's not a podcast yet, but it's going to be a podcast. You'll be able to download this episode or subscribe to Search Marketing Scoop to download the episode very soon from iTunes, Apple podcasts, or whatever your favorite Android podcast app happens to be.

So, if you're here, hopefully, you prefer the live stream, you prefer to interact, you prefer to see our wonderful faces. So it's good to see you if you happen to be here on our live stream. If you're here in a live stream, say hi in the chat. Why don't you share where in the world you happen to be watching us from? It's always good to know a little bit about the audience. But in the meantime, you can also maybe have a think about what have you been up to over the last week or so? Is there anything that you've been doing that has been impacted by news stories or blog stories that you've seen out there? I had a quick look at the SEMrush sensor tool.

It actually says that there's been a very low range in terms of the level of changes on the server at the moment. So, it doesn't seem to be that much happening just now. As you can see, going back to September 11th, there was a lot of flux going on there. The beginning of September there as well, September 20th, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot going on at the moment in terms of changes to different rankings. But you might have experienced something slightly differently. Stephen Williams in Denver, Colorado, welcome. Great to have you on board and watching as a live viewer. Suppose you're one of the other live viewers that I know are watching.

Go and tell us a little about you, where you're from, and what you actually happen to be doing at the moment. We've got a couple of wonderful guests that we're going to share with you very soon when I do the proper podcast introduction. There's no point in introducing them twice, and we'll get that introduction very, very soon. So if we're not going to get too much more interaction in the chat just now, I'm sure we're going to have just a few more people watching us live, but of course.

You'll probably be consuming this as an audio podcast at some point in the future while watching us live. So what I will do is Jamie Coombs from Vermont. Hello, Jamie. Thanks for tuning in. So I'm going to click the audio record button that I've got in front of me here. I'm then going to click on the fancy theme music that we're going to be recording as part of the podcast and start on the introduction.

What is the topic layer in Google's answer boxes? Is the future of search discovery? Amazon is now the number three digital ad platform in the USA. And Google wants users to be logged in everywhere. Broadcasting live on the SEMrush YouTube channel, this is Search Marketing Scoop, the SEMrush show that brings together the top PPC and SEO folk to discuss the current search headlines and how they impact you. I am your host David Bain. Let us meet today's guests. So first up, a podcasting pro and co-author of The Art of SEO. Welcome to the scoop, Stephan Spencer.

Hey, thanks for having me.

DB: Hey, thanks so much for joining us, Stephan. Next up, an author, speaker, and expert in paid search advertising, he is the owner and CEO of FMB Media. Welcome, David Szetela.

Thank you, David. Hi, everybody.

DB: Hi, David. Thanks so much for joining us with such a wonderful first name. So, let's go back to Stefphan for story number one. What is the topic layer in Google's answer boxes? Google talked about the topic layer at recent events. But Stephan, what is it?

Yeah, so first of all, we need to distinguish the knowledge graph from the regular search results because the topic layer is part of the knowledge graph. And some people mistakenly think that the organic results are being fed by the Knowledge Graph. But the Knowledge Graph is a completely separate thing. The topic layer is part of the Knowledge Graph. It's a layer that allows Google to associate different topics with a search keyword that you put in.

And so when you are getting, instead of just the ten blue links of organic search results, you're getting preempted with an answer box, which is oftentimes a featured snippet with essentially an expanded search listing. That is not coming from the knowledge graph, whereas the topic layer is coming from the knowledge graph, and all the associations between topics and subtopics are in that knowledge graph.

So Google can feed back to you if you search for a breed of dog as your search query. You can get back different subtopics that you might want to explore and dig deeper into. So that's, I think, a nice innovation. I've always been thinking in terms of topics for years anyway. I know there are a bunch of tools out there that think about topics and not just individual keywords; SEMrush is included.

Search metrics are another one. They've got a whole topic explorer. So if we're thinking in terms of topics or entities anyway as SEOs, then we need to think about how these topics are going to surface in this new way and how we need to be there when this new format is exposing us or our competitors.

DB: So how do SEOs optimize to try to surface their content for these subtopics as a result of Google taking this information from the Knowledge Graph?

Well, first off, we need to identify what the subtopics would be so that we make sure that we are addressing those subtopics. If we are very surface level in our addressing of a topic, let's say that we're writing an article. About lawn mowers, we are not talking about lawn care or grass or weed whackers or any other related terms; that's a very surface-level article, very narrow and superficial. So, if we need more organic search traffic and we want to provide a better answer to the searcher's query.

We need to identify those subtopics, those related topics or entities. Some SEOs refer to these as LSI keywords and incorporate them into the article. Now, if you're using a tool like, let's say it's Search Metrics, Topic Explorer as an example. Of course, SEMRush is one of my favorite tools as well. And you're getting a list of related topics to address. So you're seeing where the gaps are.

Well, then you're going to want to incorporate into your planning process the subtopics that are being surfaced by Google when people are doing searches in those answer boxes and make sure you're addressing those topics as well. Just like you're going to Google and seeing what's showing up in the People Also Ask box, maybe use AnswerThePublic.com to get some ideas for questions to address and answer in your article.

DB: So SEOs just need to focus on ensuring that they're covering the correct topics, the appropriate topics that people are likely to be looking for in relation to the search that they may be conducting. So, it's not about trying to get within different sources for the knowledge panel. Is it just simply talking about the kind of things that are associated with those types of topics?

Yeah, I think so, but that's my opinion. If you're looking to get certain bits of data into the Knowledge Graph, you'll go to sources like Wikidata, which are key places that Google goes to get data for the Knowledge Graph. This is more about providing a comprehensive overview of the subtopics because if you don't have that, you don't have much in the way to offer somebody who's diving into one of these subtopics after a more generic search query.

DB: Okay, great. I'm sorry you cut off slightly there. You said an overview. Can you remember the phrase that was used after that?

An overview of the topic of the, yeah, whatever your the keyword is that you're addressing. I think that's what I said.

DB: Sorry, I should have tried to remember more of the phrase beforehand as well, but it's a rather generic word to try and lead you in there. Just one other follow-up question in relation to this. Google seems to be publishing more content within its answer boxes now because of these subtopics. Should SEOs be concerned about people not visiting their websites now because so much more content is being published on Google? Or is it still just as valuable to get people to consume your content directly on the SERP?

Yeah, this has been a concern forever, even before the featured snippets. So you just have to get with the program. So Google's calling the shots, and you know, you may not like it, but you got to play their game because they're not a charity. They're in this to make money and get the searcher through the editorial results, but they make all their money off the ads. And if they alienate the advertisers too much by stealing all their content without giving them any benefit. Then, advertisers will vote with their wallets.

DB: Yeah, good answer. I mean, obviously, whether you like it or not, it's happening, and you have to optimize for what's there rather than what you wish was going to happen.

eah. One thing you can do is bait the searcher with enough information that it's a valuable answer, but it's not the full answer. So, let's say it's a featured snippet that you've got. Five steps of seven are displayed in the featured snippet. Well, somebody is going to wanna get the sixth and the seventh step.

And so they're gonna click through to get to your listing. It's not that dissimilar from clickbait headlines. You're going to bait them with something really enticing, but you've got to deliver at the other end. It can't be; you can't go out with a whimper. Number six will blow your mind. And then it's just not.

DB: No, that's a great point. You have to optimize for and create content for the way the medium works and not, I guess, get drawn by what historically used to work and try and stick with a similar kind of strategy. So, let's go over to David for story number two, which is that Google wants users to be logged in to Chrome 2. So, on the face of it, this isn't a paid advertising story, but it certainly impacts paid advertising. So David, what's this one all about?

DS: Well, really, Google wants to make sure that Chrome users are using and are taking advantage of one of the best features of Chrome, the ability to share settings across Chrome sessions and across Chrome machines, machines that are running Chrome. So, for example, if you have a search history in your browser on your desktop machine, it's often very useful to have that same search history available when you're doing a search on your handheld device. 

So, if you're logged into the browser, that kind of synchronization is possible. If you're not logged in, then you don't get that benefit. Another example is when you're logged into the browser, you're able to share autocomplete information. So, if you're filling in a form on your handheld device, and you're logged into the browser, and you also entered autocomplete information in your desktop browser, then you'll be able to use the same autocomplete information.

In your handheld device. So, to me, that's an advantage of the browser and one that I suspect. I don't have any data for this. I'm not sure anybody does, but I suspect that there are, that a minimum of people are aware of the fact that logging into the browser as a separate action from logging into an account can be beneficial to them, especially if they're using multiple devices, Chrome on multiple devices.

DB: So it's a win-win. It's a win for people using the platforms because they get a more seamless experience. It's a win for advertisers because they get to know more about who has visited their site on the desktop and decided to make a purchase on a mobile device. Or get them then. So, we can obviously see why Google decided to get into the browser market. It's becoming integral to follow users effectively. What does it really mean strategically for paid marketers? What do paid marketers need to be doing more to take advantage of this data?

DS: Well, I'm a huge proponent of Google Display Network advertising and the information that's collected about users and their behavior, the sites they visit and the time of day that they perform buying actions, for example. That information is available or can be used by Google to create audiences that can then be targeted by advertisers.

For example, Google has figured out—and this is a little bit of Google magic going on, so I can't explain the algorithms behind it—how to predict that an individual will make a future buying action. Product or service they're likely to buy in the future. This is called a Custom Intent Audience or a Custom Affinity Audience. And Google uses as signals all of the information that they aggregate from watching the browsing activity. By the way, that browsing activity can take place on other browsers besides

So, it's not just Chrome that's feeding this information into the pool of data that Google has about an individual. The short answer to your question is that digital advertisers are happy whenever there is more information collected about individuals that can inform the advertiser about what kind of an audience they can put together to target for their clients or advertisers.

DB: Following on from what you were saying about custom intent audiences, it's probably worthwhile continuing our discussion from episode 17, last week's discussion, when we were talking about the future of keywords and how important it was to just focus on keyword targeting or to trust Google and other advertising networks just to make the decision on their behalf. Are we, from a paid targeting perspective, seeing the end of keyword targeting at some point in the future?

DS: I don't think so. I think that people indicating their interest or their needs via words is something that is not apt to go away. In fact, with the kind of explosion of voice searches going on, I think that there will be more and more people expressing a need and using more words and longer search terms. To elaborate on what they're looking for. So, I think that people who predict the end of keywords are conflating two different things.

One is the use of keywords in a search browser. The other is the definition of audiences for the purposes of either directing display advertising their way or augmenting their keyword bids by saying to Google, if the person doing the search is a member of this audience, bid a little bit higher so that it's more likely that my ad will appear in a higher position. I'll capture this person that I, the advertiser, have determined is a better prospect for my product or service.

DB: So, the best practice is to always augment audiences that have been selected based upon keywords with a specific audience based upon what Google thinks are associated with your initial selection, or is it fine initially just to focus on keywords?

DS: I think it's fine initially to just focus on keywords, but the smart advertisers are augmenting their keyword bidding strategy by layering in these audiences. Of which is a remarketing audience. So it's become standard, not just best, but standard practice for advertisers to say to Google, by using what's called Remarketing Lists for search ads, say to Google, "When the individual doing the search has already visited my site once, by virtue of the fact that they're on this remarketing list, bid a little bit higher so that my ad will appear more prominently. Therefore, it's more likely that this individual will see my ad and choose my product or service over my competitors."

DB: There is quite a lot of discussion going on in the chat at the moment. William Rock talking about exact match campaigns that may be just topic or product-focused versus keywords. But he's also talking about what would be key to work with your negative keywords. Are negative keywords essential to have in every campaign?

DS: Oh, I think so. Yes. For every search campaign, for sure.

DB: Great. Okay. JL Faverio said, "I wonder if there's an article about really long tail keywords that originated from volume seen within voice search." Stephan, have you seen any source of keywords in relation to what people are using for voice searches?

What are you asking again?

DB: It probably wasn't phrased as well as possible, so I will try again. So, in relation to voice search, people use longer phrases, and people use different phrases. Is there any source of those keyword phrases that people use for voice searches that are available to SEOs?

That's a great question. I don't know of one. All the tools that are getting, or most of the tools that are getting question-based keywords that you might have heard of, like AnswerThePublic.com or Moz Keyword Explorer, where you can choose the option of our questions. Ubersuggest. I believe all of these tools are pulled from Google Suggest. So at least, yeah, Ubersuggest is, of course, the answer the public is Keywordtool.io is, yeah. So I don't know if there is a source coming soon, but I certainly don't know of one that's out. It is available now and can get voice-only search queries.

DB: Yeah, William said in the chat, "I used to Answer the Public. I certainly use Answer the Public as well. It's a great source for these long-tail keyword phrases, but obviously, they create these phrases by adding why, what, how, and two common keywords to augment what Google includes in the suggestions at the bottom of the search."

Yes, and they're pulling fully from Google Suggest. So that's their only data source.

DB: Exactly. So, it's not necessarily the same as how you'd phrase things from a voice search perspective. Correct. Okay, well, I know we've just heard from Stephan there. But let's go back to Stephan for story number three. And that is, is the future of search discovery?

Drive users to a place where you can discover more information, more new information and inspiration with no search query actually required. So, Stephan, what is this place?

Okay. So I have some strong opinions about this. I think that Google's being evil here, frankly, by competing with Facebook's newsfeed and trying to get us down a non-productive path. This is not about discovery; this is about addiction. I have removed my Facebook and LinkedIn apps from my phone. I'm not going to get in the habit of discovering within the Google app because that is a way to destroy your productivity.  You need deep work, especially in this day and age when it's all about distraction.

And all the big companies, Facebook, et cetera, are employing casino engineers essentially to maximize our addiction. And this is not good. This is not to our benefit. And it's not going to give us what we're looking for in terms of the journey, getting us kind of preempting our search query with, oh, well, maybe it's this stage in your wedding planning. Let me surface this for you.

Let me help you with that. That's a whole other thing. Discover is nothing like that. Discover is their game of competing with Facebook and getting you addicted to their feed instead of Facebook's. And it's not going to work. Facebook is king in that regard. But I see a new future here.

Eventually where, it's a personal SIM. Whether it's Google that provides this or it's another service, a personal SIM, I'm going to refer to a great article series, a five-part series from John Smart. It's amazing. It's on Medium. It's Medium.com/@JohnSmart. Then, find the five-part series about personal sims and how this is going to revolutionize our lives.

Imagine the very best possible assistant that you could have employed for you. I have virtual assistants working for me. I have several of them. They're human beings, and they're very good. Imagine an AI that's even better than a human at some point at those tasks that you would give to a VA.

That's what's coming. And being able to delegate stuff to your personal SIM like you can do today to a virtual assistant or an executive assistant. So, that's what I'm excited about. I think this is kind of an evil step in the wrong direction to get us addicted. But I think the end game is something more along the lines of what I just described.

DB: Okay, I didn't want to jump in at all there because of a lot of strong thoughts, but a lot of deeply considered thoughts there as well. Thanks for sharing them. But you do have some support already. Kristen tries to say 100% agree about distraction destroying productivity.

Yeah, there's this thing called the what is it called? Attention residue is what it's called. Attention residue, it's a real thing proven by science, that when you just check your phone for two seconds or somebody disturbs you and knocks on your door and says, "Got a minute, you know, and you're like, no, I don't, but what is it real quick?"

That destroys your productivity for an average of 25 minutes. Your brain is partially occupied by that thing that you just checked, that text message, the email you just checked for a second. Twenty-five minutes destroyed your flow state. That's awful.

DB: Yeah, I go into Facebook for business, and I often go on there, and within 30 seconds, I've forgotten why I've gone on there, and I have to remind myself.

Yeah. What is that? So, I'm a productivity geek, and this is antithetical to productivity. It's supposedly to our benefit, discover and news feeds in general and all that. And it's not; it is an addiction.

DB: So can you see a consumer backlash and a lot of people deciding, actually, that I don't want to be spending time on these platforms, or are these styles of platforms and content delivery here to stay?

Well, they're here to stay, unfortunately. Most people are not that aware, frankly, sadly. Hopefully, there'll be a mass consciousness shift and kind of an awakening. But in the meantime, we're all binging on Netflix. We're all Scrolling through our news feeds while we're standing in line at the checkout.

It gets us into a very different bainwave than if we're in deep work when we're in alpha. We're in flow great books about flow like book Flow and Rise of Superman. But yeah, if you want a good starting point, there's a book by Cal Newport called Deep Work. It's very well worth your time. I've actually had him on my Get Yourself Optimized podcast. It's a great episode to get an introduction to how to get into deep work and, of course, get those devices and all the distractions, all the notifications, out of your view so that you can focus and get into the flow and stay there.

DB: Some great productivity tips there. But do you have any tips for SEOs who want their content to be surfaced in these types of discovery networks? Or is your distaste for them so strong that you can't even think about that?

Well, I mean, if you think about what works in Facebook's feed as far as getting the engagement metrics, the shares and the likes and all that, what you're doing in terms of Google should work quite well for you. So, for example, let's say that you write a headline that is keyword rich, but it's not super compelling, or maybe it gives away too much in the headline, you haven't held back a little bit, there isn't any intrigue or mystery or cognitive dissonance or some surprise and delight left in that headline.

So I'm not going to end up clicking. I'm not going to, and the engagement signals aren't going to be there, so you won't perform well in any newsfeed, whether it's Facebook, LinkedIn, or Google's Discover. So hold back a little bit and surprise and delight people, giving them something that will make them do a double take and then want to get the rest of the story.

DB: Yeah, that's a great tip there. I think if SEOs are involved in suggesting what headlines content writers should be producing, then the SEOs should probably also study traditional copywriting and then those kinds of tips, as you say, to actually delight people and entice people to click and read a little bit more. Yep. Let's go into the last story. So that is to David. According to Emarketer.com, Amazon is now the third biggest digital ad platform in the USA. So, David, that crept up on me a little bit. Are Amazon ads only for those who sell products on Amazon?

DS: They can be used by companies that do not sell products exclusively on Amazon.

DB: Okay, so does that mean that there are many advertisers out there using Google ads and other networks that aren't using Amazon and absolutely should be using Amazon?

DS: I believe so, yes. And I'll give you some examples. There are very few kinds of B2B-ish advertisers on Amazon and products on Amazon. When I say B2B-ish, I mean e-retailers that sell products to a mass market and advertise exclusively through Google. Traditional media. They should be on Amazon. Their competitors are starting to be there. And I think that represents a huge growth segment for Amazon.

DB: So, how efficient is the Amazon ads platform? Is it fairly low per click? Is it generally more cost-effective to advertise there than in other places?

DS: I don't believe so. And let's separate CPC or cost-per-click advertising into two different forks. One of them is search advertising, another one is display advertising. To some extent, Amazon is more akin to search advertising and shopping search advertising.

Google and Bing's ads are examples. And the cost per click on Bing ads at the moment for shopping campaigns is lower than they are for Google. I believe, I don't have any data for this, but I believe that the CPCs on Amazon are about equivalent to Bing ads at the moment.

DB: Right, okay. So, it is certainly something to be considering. I mean, I didn't even think about it as something most businesses, unless you were selling products on Amazon, you should be considering. But you certainly open minds up to the fact that actually you can drive traffic from there to other places. And it's just a big opportunity to reach people who are perhaps searching for exactly what you're looking for. I mean, how targeted is advertising on Amazon? And how do you go about targeting people on there?

DS: It's very similar to Google and Bing Ads in that you supply keywords, and the keywords can be short tail, long tail, competitive, or non-competitive, the same as you would set it up for Google and Bing ads.

DB: Right, okay, well, I'm sure that's something that at least a few listeners who are paid search advertisers are going to try after hearing this because I'm sure a lot of people haven't tried it and perhaps should have tried it. So, thanks so much for sharing that information there. But I reckon that just about takes us to the end of the 18th episode here. Just time for an actionable tip from each of our guests. So, is it related to or not necessarily related to what we've been discussing so far? Let's go back to Stephan first. So Stefan, what is your actionable tip?

All right. So, this is related to featured snippets versus what we were talking about earlier in terms of the topics and getting the subtopics exposed through the answer box. Now, I'm talking about featured snippets, which are not powered by Google. I mean, by Google's knowledge graph, but instead, it's based on the organic results and the index. 

So, my advice for our listeners is to identify the competitors who are the most sophisticated at SEO and use a tool like SEMrush to pull the featured snippets that they have already achieved and target those featured snippets. So, the competitors featured snippets, so target those with your own SEO initiative to try and get, to try and steal those featured snippets away.

So you're looking especially for weak featured snippets where it's an incomplete or inaccurate answer to the searcher's query, or it is in the incorrect format, a suboptimal format. Like for example, if it's a how-to sort of query and it's not in a numbered list type of featured snippet, it's instead in a paragraph.

So, identify some of those weaker ones first, where you're already ranking on page one for the keyword. You could provide a better, more concise, more accurate answer in the correct, most optimal format. And you can oftentimes steal a lot of featured snippets away from your competitor. All you have to do is go into SEMrush, put in your competitor's domain, go to the organic research tab, and then click on featured snippets in the right-hand column.

So it's that easy. I wrote about it in Search Engine Land in an article about, I don't know, 12 months ago. So check my column, SearchEngineLand.com. And if you want more of these sorts of tips and stuff, I've got some great freebies at marketingspeak.com/scoop. Create some free gifts for your listeners. So that's my tip.

DB: Lovely and really actionable. It is very pertinent to what is happening in SEO today. Obviously, feature snippets feed into voice search as well. So, a great tip. And MarketingSpeaks.com/scoop, you said, Stephan.

Yep.

DB: That's it. Superb. You can also find Stephan over at StephanSpencer.com. Over to David. David, what is your actionable tip?

DS: My tip is for local advertisers who actually participated in another SEMRush webinar yesterday. We were talking about local advertising and how challenging it is, especially for small local businesses that have to compete with large regional or even national businesses, where the keywords in search advertising are just cost-prohibitive.

I hate to be a small-town lawyer trying to bid on legal terms where the CPCs can be in the tens of dollars or even hundreds of dollars. So the tip is definitely to take advantage of the Google Display Network, especially with audience targeting, like custom intent targeting, custom affinity targeting, other kinds of interest targeting, and placement targeting.

A lot of local advertisers don't realize that they can place their ads on local media sites, TV stations, radio stations, newspapers, magazines, and even national media sites, like the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. So, definitely go where your competitors are not, which is largely the Google display network, and pay a fraction of the cost for clicks that you would pay for search advertising.

DB: More wonderful, actionable advice that is hyper-specific and very relevant indeed for now for 2018. So, thanks so much, David, for sharing that.

DS: My pleasure.

DB: Great. You can find David over FMBmedia.com.

I've been your host, David Bain. You can also find me over at DigitalMarketing.com. We will be recording the next episode, episode 19 of Search Marketing Scoop, at the same time and place: the SEMrush YouTube channel on Wednesday, October 3rd, in one week's time. My guests are scheduled to be James Svaboda from WebRanking.com and Elliot Kemp from Pano. In the meantime, thanks not only to David and Stephan for this episode.

Also, thank you for tuning in. If you like what you heard, subscribe to the audio podcast if you are not already. Head over to Search and find the link to your preferred flavour of podcatcher. If you're already a Search Marketing Scoop audio podcast subscriber, remember to tell us what you think. A rating and review inside your podcast app would be very much appreciated indeed. But until next time, be fantabulous and do one thing that scares you.

Adios.